Congressman Jim McGovern is a member of the Democratic Party and represents the Second District of Massachusetts in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is a strong advocate for human rights, peace, and ending hunger. He has served on several committees, including the Committee on Rules, the Committee on Agriculture, and the Committee on Budget. He is also the chairman of the House rules committee. McGovern helped make lunch free for all students in Massachusetts among many other accomplishments. I had the pleasure of sitting down with the Congressman to discuss some of the issues going on in Washington.
Q: One of your mentors, Congressman Joe Moakley, once said about Congress, “get to know everyone as a person, get to know what they stand for, and who they are and treat them with respect” with today’s MAGA Republicans do you find it hard to follow that advice?
A: I do. Joe Moakley, he has a great mentor to me, he thought politics was an honorable profession, and he thought the ability to get things done was about building relationships. I still try and follow his advice, I have friends that are very conservative republicans, I try to get to know them on a personal basis, try to get to know them so we have something in common. Because not everything is a big partisan fight. Before Joe Moakley I worked for a guy named George McGovern, who ran for president, no relation. He had the same philosophy too, he friended republicans like Barry Goldwater, he used to say to me, “you don’t have to agree on everything, but agree on something.” So the Moakley and Mcgovern influences are still very strong on me, and
I try to build as many relationships as I can, and it’s hard. There are some people who don’t want to reciprocate. The elevator will stop, they’ll see me and not want to get into the elevator with me. I will put them in their place on the house floor, because it can be very combative. Those are instances when and where I am fighting for things I believe in and feel very strongly about.
A lot of the MAGA republicans view me as more than just an advisory, but as an enemy. I find that unfortunate, and as a result some relationships cannot be forged.
Q: Former President Donald Trump was just indicted again for the 3rd time, federally in Washington DC for inciting January 6th, he has been indicted already federally in Florida for being in possession of classified documents and in New York for the hush money payments made to Stormy Daniels and here there might be a fourth indictment any minute. If convicted on any of those charges, do you think he should or will spend time in prison?
A: That’ll be up to who’s prosecuting the case and a judge and a jury. I don’t think that Donald Trump is fit to serve in any office. I think he’s moved this country away from democracy and more toward authoritarianism and fascism quite frankly, and I think he is a very dangerous man. I think one of the things he has done, that is particularly offensive to me, is that he is a pathological liar that has deceived people. He has driven wedges through our society that have been very destructive and spread so much misinformation. I was the last person on the House Floor on January 6th, I saw the destruction that he brought to bear on the Capital. Many House Police officers were injured. The lies and the deception, this is a man that this country needs to move beyond from. He should be treated like any other citizen in this country; if a jury of his peers finds him guilty, he should receive the same punishment anyone else would.
Q: Do you find his base to be involved in a cult?
A: He has somewhat of a cult like following, let me put it that way. Because a lot of people will corner me at airports, restaurants, or town halls and want to defend him, without hearing anything the other side has to say. He is always right, nothing he says is ever wrong. At least listen to my opinion if you want me to listen to yours. I have my set of beliefs, but I’ll still listen to people I don’t agree with. We have to listen to one another, that’s a sign of respect. If we stop listening to one another, or we just disagree then you must be all bad. That’s not good for our democracy.
Q: What do you think Donald Trump’s hold on members of both Houses of Congress is?
A: He is very popular amongst the republican base. I serve with republicans who tell me every day that he’s dangerous, he’s out of his mind. They think he is out of his mind, but they don’t want to say anything bad about him because they don’t want to get primaried. Amongst republican primary voters Trump’s popularity is at an all-time high. I get it, I understand why republicans are nervous about taking him on, but at some point you have to ask yourself “why am I in Congress?” It’s not just to get reelected, you’re in Congress to do things, to move this country in a better direction. Going along to get along with someone you tell me in private is awful, tells me you don’t belong in Congress, you should have the courage of your convictions. I am old enough to remember when Richard Nixon was president, and conservative republicans like Barry Goldwater went to Nixon and told him “You’re done, we are not going to support you anymore because of what you did”, and Nixon was out. We don’t have any Barry Goldwaters in today’s republican party in Congress right now.
I was there on January 6th, I saw the chaos and destruction he brought to this nation. His supporters will say over and over again that the election was stolen from him, and I say on the contrary, there were dozens and dozens and dozens of court cases that he lost challenging the election results. This man tried to deliberately undercut a democratic election and tried to take away the power of the people’s votes. He tried to do anything to achieve his goal, at a certain point whether you support him or not, his behavior has to be unacceptable. I’ve lived long enough to see elections I rejoiced over and others that made me very depressed. That’s the way it works, that’s our system, that’s our democratic system. In Trump world elections don’t matter, people don’t matter, all that matters is that he holds onto power. That’s not a democracy, that’s an authoritarianism regime, that’s a fascist regime. I don’t want any part of that, I don’t want us moving in that direction. I look at Trump as an extremely dangerous human being, he uses people, usually for his own financial gain.
Q: There is an age old saying that all politicians lie, do you think there should be laws against politicians lying or using deceit to win their elections?
A: I wish there was a way to do that, to control purposeful lying and misinformation in campaigns. The right to freedom of speech is a very powerful right. When you take that and turn it into something that results in violence, that’s a different story. I think that when campaigning both republicans and democrats alike should be held to a high standard, to the facts, you know there are facts. This is a cup of coffee, it’s not a dining room table. You know we have people in Trump world who will say no it’s a dining room table, and 30% of the voters agreeing saying it’s a dining room table and not a cup of coffee. This is crazy! But I don’t know how we establish a form or a way where we call people out on their blatant lies on the left and the right. The lies and the manipulation, we have seen this in our world history before, we have seen demagogs rise to power through deceit and manipulation, inciting fear and moving people into panic, and each time that happened the outcome was not good. We are approaching another election; I am hoping the American people will say no to fascism.
You can win the popular vote and still lose the election, Hillary Clinton won by 4 million votes and was never president of this country. It matters where the votes are coming from in the electoral college, I personally would love to get rid of the electoral college. None the less it is still part of our system.
Q: MAGA Republicans are spending a lot of taxpayer’s money on investigating Hunter Biden and hoping to find some criminality by President Biden. So far, they have provided no evidence that connects President Biden to any wrongdoing. Where do you think this insanity ends?
A: They are looking for a distraction, let me say this, Hunter Biden has done some bad things in his life. He ought to be treated like anyone else in this country, he is currently in the process of getting a plea deal, trying to bring his criminal cases to closure.
If other things were to come up that he did wrong, that’s illegal, he should be treated like anyone else and deal with the punishment like anyone else. I think a lot of this stuff with Hunter Biden is to distract from Donald Trump. If something else were to come out, I am not going to circle the wagons around Hunter Biden, if it’s illegal, he should face the same legal process as anyone else. They tried this same thing with Hillary Clinton, they caused a percent of the American people to have a strong amount of distrust in her. I thought it was terribly unfair, and denied someone who I think would have been a spectacular president. They’ll keep on doing this, the whole thing with Hunter Biden is to keep the suspicion or wrongdoing alive. They don’t want any of it resolved, they just want it out there. It’s like if an investigation were to show he did something illegal, he should be punished in accordance to the law, period. I would never object to that. If there is nothing there, then there is nothing there. It’s not up to politicians to make that determination, there are investigators and prosecutors whose job it is to make that determination. Not Congress.
Q: Donald Trump is currently the frontrunner for the Republican Presidential Primary, with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis coming a distant second, who with their policies, is a bigger threat to the country?
A: I think they are both awful. I think a Trump victory is the end of our democracy. I think it’s sad that they are the frontrunners for the republican party. I am from Massachusetts. I served with Governor Charlie Baker. I respected him. We had our disagreements, but I thought he was a man of integrity. Where are the Charlie Bakers in today’s Republican party or the Mitt Romneys or John McCains? Instead, we are stuck with pathological liars like Donald Trump. It’s like really? And I am shocked that more Republicans aren’t asking for a much higher quality candidate. It’s not like there aren’t any good Republicans. Liz Cheney for example, got primaried for telling the truth. She and I agree on 10% of the issues, but she is my friend and I have respect for her. I have even more respect for her because she stood up to a bully named Donald Trump. It’s not easy for people to tell the truth, especially when they are up against the slime machine that is the Donald Trump operation. Cheney and Kinzinger told the truth, they get death threats every day, they need to security for themselves and their families. They sacrificed a lot for telling the truth, and history will judge them in a way that is very positive. Whatever the short-term advantages are to rally around the lies of Donald Trump are just that, short term. Long term history will praise those that had the guts to tell the truth and will condemn those that went along with the lies.
Q: I know something you are very passionate about is peace. Are you concerned with Donald Trump saying publicly if convicted the country will see things that have never been done before? Similar to January 6th or worse?
A: He incited January 6.th It was a terrible terrible day, like I said I was the last person on the House Floor. I took over for Nancy Pelosi as acting Speaker of the House. I came face to face with this angry mob that was destroying property and beating up Capital Police Officers. I don’t believe in violence, and those that promote violence, we ought to condemn them. Anybody that incites violence should be held accountable and put in jail. One of the hallmarks of a democracy is that you resolve your differences at the ballot box, you don’t take up arms if you don’t like the result of an election. You move on to another day. I was in the Speaker’s chair and saw every member of the House and some of the Republicans that now are trying to pass off January 6th as something that was no big deal. One in particular, who was cowering behind Capital Police. I thought he was going to cry.
I don’t blame him for being nervous, it was a scary day, but for him to come out now like it was no big deal, that’s just offensive.
Those officers made sure we all got out, and that none of us were injured or killed. When you say nothing happened that day, that it was no big deal, it’s just an insult to those officers and to our democracy. I don’t know how anyone can defend what happened that day, just because you don’t like what happened doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, it happened. There were millions and millions of dollars in damage. One officer lost his eye site, some others were severely injured, some resulting in their deaths. Somehow that can be said to be “no big deal” I think that’s offensive, and that Donald Trump allowed this to happen, urged this to happen, I think it’s unforgivable. I am particularly frustrated with these republican congress members that are macho and urged it on before the attack. I wish I could have videotaped it; they were cowering in the corners petrified for their lives. Keving McCarthy that day, said the right thing, telling Donald Trump that he needed to get these people to back off. Then,
I don’t know what happened, but a few days later McCarthy was back in the mode of defending Donald Trump. I don’t know what Trump threatened him with, but in a matter of days, he did a complete reversal.
Q: Abortion will be a big driver in the 2024 elections for people to come out and vote. We know MAGA republicans want to force women to have babies no matter what their situation is. Women have abortions for many different reasons, one of which is that they cannot afford the cost of having children. I know preventing childhood hunger is something you’re passionate about, do you find it troubling that those same republicans want to cut programs like SNAP and WIC?
A: Barney Frank had a line I think rings true, that republicans believe life begins at conception and ends at birth. I am beginning to think Barney was right. In terms of the issue of abortion, that is something that should not be decided by politicians. Everybody’s life is different, everybody has different circumstances and challenges. That is up to a woman to make that decision, it is not up to Congress. Some of my colleagues who believe a woman’s right to abortion should be restricted, they themselves have had mistresses that they paid to have abortions. It’s like you can’t make this stuff up, so I believe very strongly in a woman’s right to choose. That we should protect reproductive freedoms. I also believe that we have a moral right that no one in this country, or in this world goes hungry. I think it’s a fundamental human right and the fact that we live in the richest country in the world and have over 35 million citizens that don’t know where their next meal is going to come from should be a source of great shame for every politician and person of great means in this country. There is not a single congressional district in this country that is hunger free. We have hungry kids, we have hungry workers, and we have hungry senior citizens. We have millions of people who do not have access to nutritious foods, and we can fix that. If you’re not moved morally to make sure everybody has food security, and if all you care about is the bottom line, you should want to join us in this effort. Hunger is costing us, kids that go to school hungry don’t learn, senior citizens that take their medication on an empty stomach who should take it with a meal end up in the emergency room. Workers that are hungry are less productive in the workforce. So, there is a cost to this that far out ways any investments we need to address hunger in this country. We ought to end hunger now! I worked very hard with the Massachusetts legislature to make sure that all school kids will now get their lunches for free now. Kids in Massachusetts that can’t afford a lunch don’t learn, and now that ends.
Q: Protecting human rights is something you strongly advocate. There’s an attack right now on transgender people, especially transgender children. There is a lot of misinformation from the right stating children are being mutilated, when a strong majority of gender affirming operations are not happening until after 18 year old, and approximately only 1% of people (including children) that have transitioned regret it. Do you think it’s possible to educate people on the right of the facts on the harm they are causing by attacking gender affirming care of transgender people?
A: We have to try. The misinformation those on the right are spreading also impacts how people in the middle may think. My late father used to tell me all the time, “everybody is different, everybody is unique, and we need to respect each other for who we are.” That’s that, it’s that simple, he was right. I don’t understand why there are so many people in this country who spend all their time trying to attack and rip apart people who are different from them. They highlight differences about those in our community, it is such a waste of time and energy, and it’s destructive. We have seen hate crimes increase, suicides increase, why don’t we just respect each other for who we are and get on with our lives.
Q: Gun violence is the number one cause of death of children right now in the United States. MAGA republicans say they are the party of saving the children. Why do you think they are so against common sense gun laws?
A: Because the gun lobby provides them with a lot of money for their campaigns and they are afraid that they will lose their primaries if they do anything that the gun lobby does not want them to do. We live in a country where we have massacres occur on a regular basis. No other industrialized nation in the world has a gun violence problem like we do. What’s wrong with background checks? If you have a criminal background or a background of violence, we don’t want you to have a gun. What’s wrong with limiting the sale of guns to people that have violent histories? Do you really need a weapon of war to be able to hunt? Some of these weapons that people demand access to were designed for combat. This is out of control, It’s ridiculous and
I am getting tired of moments of silence. We need more moments of outrage, thoughts and prayers are not working, they are not stopping this. When Bill Clinton was president, we had the ban on assault weapons that actually made a difference. And when Bush became president, they let it expire. Since then, we have seen a proliferation of not just gun deaths, but of massacres in schools, synagogues, churches, workplaces, at some point we all have to say collectively “this is not how we want to live.” Common sense ought to prevail.
Q: The 2024 election is going to be one of the most important this country has ever had; how can we get more people involved in getting out the vote?
A: I think we must remind people of what is at stake. We need to tell people what we are for, not just what we are against. I do think Joe Biden has a vision of positive government. I think he has already done things that are making a difference, we just passed the biggest infrastructure bill in history. It will help in fixing our roads and infrastructure all around the country, that’s a big deal. It will help create new jobs; it will help take on the war against climate change. Biden is trying to take on prescription drug prices and trying to make college affordable for young people. He is trying to make a country where everyone is respected for who they are. He is also trying to take on this epidemic of gun violence. People have to pay attention, and they need to understand what is at stake. Because if Donald Trump were to win this election it is not only the end of democracy, but it will usher in authoritarianism and quite frankly fascism. I say that as a student of history. That is what Donald Trump is, he is a fascist. Countries that have moved into authoritarianism and fascism realize it too late, and you cannot reverse it. We need to realize right now that the country that we love is under attack from within and this election is the most important election of our lifetime!
